Position of Rider on a Horse

[David Genadek]

I have been confused by your placement of the spine, but I think I got where your coming from. This picure may help clarify for others. Still not sure how you place the front of the backbone based on the outside of the horse, but I get the general idea.

Jennifer

Jennifer.

I found the point of hip and base of neck and connected them. I have put in a black line on your drawing to show you where the yellow line came from. To find the base of neck on your horse find the where the neck gets wider go down to where it narrows again and that will be the base of the neck.

I have also put in some colored areas on the drawing that represent the areas of streangth on the back. The blue area is where the spine has the most elements supporting it. The purple area has fewer and the red area has only one muscle to help stabalize the spine so it is the weakest part of the back. If you follow the currently popular line of thought in regard to saddle fit you will be sitting on the purple and red zone.

David Genadek

[pete]

If you follow the currently popular line of thought in regard to saddle fit you will be sitting on the purple and red zone.

David Genadek

I'm confused- are you suggesting that this is incorrect and that we should be sitting more correctly in the blue/purple zone over the withers more?

[David Genadek]

If you follow the currently popular line of thought in regard to saddle fit you will be sitting on the purple and red zone.

David Genadek

I'm confused- are you suggesting that this is incorrect and that we should be sitting more correctly in the blue/purple zone over the withers more?

I'm saying there are different ideas about how to ride a horse and those ideas produce different conclusions in regard to saddle fitting and all equipment design. Therefore it is contingent on the horse owner to be clear on what they want when they talk to a maker. As a saddle maker the two biggest questions I will try to decipher from a client are where they want to sit and how they want to sit. If their answers are outside of what I do then I will send them down the road.

It is a matter of perspective. From my perspective I would never consider using T14 as the basis for the center of the saddle, the rear limit of the seat yes. The problem this presents is that it makes the tree shape more critical

and complex and thus selling becomes more of an ordeal . Historically saddles have been further forward than what is happening today. I've attached a picture of two paintings that show riders being in a forward position interestingly one rider is Jineta and the other is Brida but both are in a forward position on the horse.

David Genadek

[Doug Mclean]

David:

Do you have a picture or an illustration of the tree you would use on this project?

[David Genadek]

David:

Do you have a picture or an illustration of the tree you would use on this project?

I'm not sure just looking at a tree you can tell much but here is a tree I think would be close. This shape is pulled directly from the profiles of a real back.

David Genadek

[David Genadek]

Jennifer,

To get this back on track, you still have to fit bars to the back of your mare. That is the first order of business. Or the first order of business after she gets into shape whichever way you approach it. I'm with Jim, I'd get her in shape and then approach it. I think we all agree that she is built a little downhill. Picture angles and such can make that look one way or the other, but she probably won't shrink much in hind leg length, and might gain a little in front legs, will fill in and tighten up, but at four those growth plates are all but closed. You have what you have, and the lines down her side wherever you place them are going to be downhill. That is part of her, and a ton (no pun intended) of horses are that way. I've got one, and so have most people who have been around. People ride a lot of them and do just fine. The most square inches of bar on her with the least bridging and no edges digging in will fit her the best. That is the simple answer. The harder answer is - that is done with bar shape, spread, and angles. That has to be determined. What maker does to the topside is somewhat dependent on the bottom. Not always. but mostly.

David,

I have been following a lot of what you have written and on your website for at least a year and a half. Some I understand, and some I don't. I know you have some other ideas than many tree makers. I have seen the line drawings, but would be interested in seeing pictures of where your trees differ, and where you position them on the live horse. That would probably clear up a lot of the confusion. My seats generally have the same or more scoop in the side profile as the ones on your website, and really are not a lot different than many other handmakers. We may all be sitting pretty much in the same place? Maybe start a new topic to keep this one on track. I have to laugh on the painting. I am glad I wasn't a knight in 1500. If the live horse was bogged down that much in the back as in the painting, I am not sure my ride would have held up long enough to get to the battle, let alone pack me through it. I wonder how many of those mounted knights ended up in the infantry pretty early in the fight.

Bruce,

Here is where I differ, it took me a while to figure it out, I guess I couldn't beleave what I was hearing. So I have been doing a poll on several horse forums where I post these pictures and ask Where do you want to sit?

A is where I always thought everyone was trying to get people to sit. B is where the industry is saying they are getting you to sit. C is where you will actually end up if you follow the current line of thinking of the industry. You just have to do the math. Here is a link to a quick study we did here.

So in this case we have a down hill horse which does put more wieght on the front legs and biomechanically puts the horse at a disadvantage to get collected. Here is a small film to show how the wieght distribution actually happens. If the horse is down hill it accentuates it even more. You can feel this by sitting in the positions above. You can actually see how this horse has changed it's posture to compensate for the different positions. In all the polling I did not a single person chose C as the position they wanted to sit in yet when they went out and paid attention to where they were they were in the C position.

So if Jennifer wants a saddle to fit this horse she needs to understand that the further forward she sits the more she will be helping this conformation. If she does the set the saddle behind the shoulders thing she will be working against her goals as a rider. In short order the horse will have pockets behind it's shoulders in additon to other back and neck pathologies that are now considered normal in the market place.

The paintings above are a wonderful illustration of both where to sit and how to sit. Both the riders are sitting in the same position but how they are sitting is different and you can see the effects on horses. You can see how stessed out the Brida horse is just because the rider is braced. So all this is directly related to Jennifers question becasue until she is aware of where and how she wants to sit she can not make a judgement about the information that she gets bombarded with. Weather a given concept is correct for her depends on how she answers those two fundamental questions. For the saddle maker these two questions define their saddlemaking practice. If you remember the Dusty Johnsons post on saddle fitting being a myth, he was correct for how he has defined his market. He was being honest and although my perspective differs from his I do respect his honesty. These differences help us define our own personal preferences.

David Genadek

[Blake]

Hello David

You need to post pictures of this tree on a horses back so that everyone can understand your theory on placement and fit and please show the balance point of the seat at the same time. The pictures are very vague, You need to point out what is unique about it. You might cover the rigging too.

Kind Regards

Blake

[JRedding]

David, I think this brings the only clarity for me I've ever found in what you've been trying to tell us, the photos really help explain your way of thinking to me. This is what I see though I'm sure it will differ. Photo A is where you'd naturally ride bareback, photo B is where I see an English saddle sit, and photo C is where a western stock saddle sits. This is where I see your thought of ideal differing from mine. I wouldn't choose A as my choice to sit on a horse because it's putting all the weight he's carrying on the front end, the smoothest gaited horse will ride rough and have no choice but to learn to work on his front end, there goes any caliber of an actual stop and a horse couldn't rein very well when his front end is too heavy to get off his front feet and work on his butt. The result of riding a horse that far forward would prevent him from doing the job I need him for, if he stops on his front end and has to walk a circle to turn around he's rendered pretty much useless in a corrall sorting cows. Much of our country has been described as only having two places to ride up and down, and some of the country surrounding where I live is worse. As an example I had a customer in Idaho that runs fifteen hundred mother cows in country that supports them year round with no feeding hay just a lot of winter riding in the river breaks. They never put a horse in that country until he's five and they never left them in there past the age of nine or they'd stiffen up so bad in the front end they'd ruin them. Under conditions like these any extra abuse of a horses front end would be drastic.Position B would probably be the ideal best for the horse in the long term. I do think there would be some things I'd expect a horse to do that may not be possible because he's still carrying more weight up front than is normal to me and I'm assuming something would have to be different. I can see how someone just trail riding on pretty flat ground could ride like that all the time. I don't know if someone could maintain that position and do things that a western saddle was intended for, a forward position like that would make it difficult to stand up and rope a cow, when you stood up and leaned forward you'd be clear up over his front end in position A I guess, so far it would make it a little dangerous to be runnin' him through the brush. I'd think the weight that far forward would increase the chance he's going down. I've had ones head go between his front feet and out under his a@# at full tilt before so I'm not going to volunteer to do the study on how the laws of physics may apply to that scenario. I think the position C in the photo is a little exaggerated, that appears to me where you'd be if your knees were locked and you were really pushing against the cantle. But I'd agree that is roughly where most people sit in a western stock saddle. It may not be the ideal position for a horses structure to be carrying the weight from a veterinarians point of veiw, but a horse likely wasn't designed by nature and put on earth for the sole purpose of carrying a person. The C position seems to allow a horse to do things he can't with a person on his back anywhere else. A calf horse could never perform the athletic act he does with someone sitting up on top of his withers, a reining horse could never slide twenty feet and change directions with his front end being weighted to the ground, and a ranch horse couldn't safely navigate the brush, rocks and down timber he has to just to put in a days work. The position of the western saddle as it is has evolved out of nesscecity apparantly. In all fairness I'm sure a hunter -jumper couldn't perform well with a western saddle and someone sitting in Davids C position. The position they ride in has evolved to be the best for the task at hand also. Everything has it's place, and what's ideal under one circumstance isn't under another. I think maybe why you get misunderstood and frustratred with guys like me is that we come from different worlds.My impression (and it may be wrong) of back east where you are is that people mainly keep horses for sport or hobby, folks go to a barn to learn to ride, and most horses only job is the entertainment of their owner. My impression is probably inaccurate but that's the impression I've got, there are no cows to tend, no mountains, and most riders are confined to worked arenas. Riding a horse has never been a hobby you pick up like sking or instead of bowling to me it's just part of everyday life like driving, it's really not a decision you up and make one day like I think I'll learn to ride a horse. It's been a nescessaty for parts of life as long as I can remember. I "learned" to ride a horse because you sure couldn't follow my dad if you were afoot. It's not something I had to study to learn to do it's as natural to me as walking. I don't think a riding a horse is the same to me as it is to you. And some of what I'd want in a saddle you might not understand because it's not the same as what you'd do. I think your ideas will work in your world but I have seen folks with a lot of training about where to keep your feet and how to sit a horse come to mine and at the end of the day following a cowpuncher through the brush and rocks it seems to dissappear and they're sittin' like a cowpuncher because it's the only way that works where we're at.

[greg gomersall]

To add to JRedding's comments the stirrup leathers are hung just ahead of the low spot of the seat and they transfer a lot of the weight of the rider farther forward than what it appears in David's photo c bareback. If you ride on your ass with no weight on your stirrups your dead weight and will cripple you horse. Even when your heels are inline with your shoulders your stirrup leathers are still hung ahead of your pelvis so in no way is photo c an accurate representation of how one sits a horse. Greg

[bruce johnson]

David,

Looking at the tree pictures here. Do you have one that shows the rock of the bars? At least from the front, looks like a lot of rock. Is this how you get them forward and up over the withers more, by raising the fronts through rock? I can see how that could move the rider forward. If so, doesn't this remove some of the force at the front bar pads, but then concentrates it at the low point of the bow, theoretically where the rider is sitting? Then if someone were to use the horn for more than puling themself up, wouldn't this make the whole affair tip forward and bear down on the scapulas worse. If I am reading something into this that isn't there sorry, but more pictures and where you set these on the horse would help.